I could really use some help. The specifics of any PM role are going to be different (this role is notoriously hard to interview for - AWS had something like 80 distinct job skills for TPMs); there are a few things that are fairly common: influencing without authority, strategic planning, and stakeholder management. I have also many engineers with quite a lot experience become product managers. Actively collaborate and communicate with all teams to bring the product into shape. For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy. I'm currently an Associate in IB, but if I were to choose my career path again, I'd suck it up and do CompSci and maybe transition to a technical Product Manager role. See for yourself start a free 30-day trial. Resume Review. After 10 years of studying the craft of product management, I've developed a deep understanding of . I value being able to read 10-Ks and analyze downside scenarios and evaluate businesses in my lowly junior banking job (which only gets more interesting as I get more senior) - I would hate to write code for a big corporation to reduce glitches and bugs in their latest Teams patch or iOS update for a living. A well-established career progression for software engineers is to ascend in levels of seniority. During my time ux used to serve some product work. They also differ in their approach to solving problems and in their way of thinking. Product Manager. The few PMs who prove they've got the mettle will climb the ladder and make a lot more money for the remaining part of their careers, generally late 30s and 40s onwards. What do I need to do to get into product management? The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." But some people and companies insist on drawing a difference. Brian seeks business and wilderness adventure. Commodi qui quidem qui aut consectetur dicta molestiae. Some startups are absolute sweatshops though. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. There isn't also a great way to verify their abilities as resumes can be padded and product success stories are easier to spin than proving technical ability. I am not hating on the role; It's just not my cup of tea. LinearB may send you email occasionally about how you can optimize productivity. Unlike swes, we have to meet these people regularly and get the work done. Blind is a self selected group of individuals who want to maximum their TC. Meta Brownie points for your quirkiness !!!! #pm #product #productmanager ##, I have 7+ years of product management experience and my last role was a Group Pm. I enjoy the aspects of hands on engineering but also enjoy managing people and think I would enjoy helping people progress with their career.TC: 160k, Go to company page Consider the following: Nature of your work: Engineers and product managers don't take on the same tasks. Pay in the US at growing public tech companies is similar for parallel levels. I found a PM position at Hertz that could be a great fit. With the business vision brought by the product manager, plus the solution design made by UX people based on an understanding of the customer's need or problem product engineering "builds" the product. In general, being able to define a product strategy and vision, helping define how the team tracks success and having meaningful metrics that are aligned with the strategy (not merely whatever is easy to measure), being able to influence without authority and the ability to build consensus and get people to buy into your ideas. Engineering is the technical team of developers and managers who write the code and create the front end, so the clearer the guidance they get upfront, the better. Observed that I am getting paid relatively way less as a Product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the same level. At other companies, product managers are more like project managers. Eng, Go to company page Youre in fewer meetings and hopefully have fewer distractions. Comprehensive Guide to the Software Engineer Career Path. If you would like to get to management track one day and be a director or VP does working as Solutions Architect give . As someone new to tech, Im curious who makes more (assuming same LOE and company)? TPMs lead the sprints, gathers requirements from the product managers. Other forums write random shit. Defining features. would love to connect with PM folks waiting to join Meta. So forget about engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs. Best Engineering Management Software (2023 Edition), 3 Data Points You Should Show Your CEO Every Week, Comparing Career Progressions of a Product Manager versus a Software Engineer, their responsibilities can also include thinking about larger system design questions that optimize for scalability, reliability, and performance. Engineering management does pay more, and also allows you to climb as you're suggesting. Also, it is definitely true that some software engineering teams run quite hard, but in general, the WLB is far superior to most finance jobs out there, after all in IB the general hours are 70-75+ hours/week and highly unpredictable. For anyone else reading this, here is an article that discusses the differences: PMing def could be time consuming and mentally demanding, but in a different way, https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-management-vs-program-management/. How easy/ hard is it. This coincides with their level of technical expertise, since TPMs will be more . Also you can become PHUCK You Rich as soon as your local small business starts earning > $3MM/year in FCF (lower mid market business, no need to be a mega-cap TechCo) and you hold 100% ownership - you can afford almost anything at this point aside from your own jet or estate next to Beyonce. Ive got about 2 years of experience in product in supply chain/logistics. Pay differs drastically between departments. Get updates in your inbox with the latest tips, job listings, and more. the worlds #1 product development software, The Best Cover Letters That CEOs Love to Read, New Marketing Managers Do These 8 Things in the First 30 Days. Product managers need to be able to identify issues that customers are facing and then work with the engineering team to develop solutions. Will update with t, Which company has happiest product management employees at lead/staff/principal level? What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . All Rights Reserved. Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. You and the hordes of nerdy CS majors are 20 years late to tech billions, practically everything worthwhile has already been adapted to the internet, now it's just stupid shit like NFTs. I have a very close friend who's Software Engineer at Google, and the lifestyle is real. If you find you lose something in translation, address it quickly. Their skills, however, may remain the same. That being said, please don't think that tons of 400k 20 hour a week tech jobs are just falling out of the sky for CS majors from no name schools. nowhere near. Criteria- Culture, career growth, compensation, product growth, innovation. Most companies also dont know how to hire or evaluate good PMs. Product Manager. Find out what to include in your cover letter to catch the attention of a CEO. 95 percent of them went to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc. Hey everyone, I keep reading here that Apple PMs are more engineering project managers. Its equally taxing, sometimes more than SWE but in very different ways. Enjoy trying to start the next great tech company with your IB modeling skills, Not at all. Companies think PMs are replaceable and engineers are not. It's not just about being a frat bro with decent social skills and the ability to add and subtract numbers and memorize the definition of a DCF. Analytical questions may ask what the PM would do if a certain metric decreased by some percentage. You are not able to find a natural rhythm in how you collaborate. Occasional heavy work days are okay. Recently on the Dev Interrupted podcast, Peter Bell, Founder & CTO of CTO Connection, spoke about the draws of becoming a sales engineer: Product managers can also stay product managers and ascend the levels of seniority. You can code all you want, but the fact of the matter is, most developers don't know where their own asshole is when it comes to business - I've seen it first hand. Update - its 500 c. Looking for a career change out of talent acq. The tech boom is just a blip amongst the companies of history. If not, you will be acting from different points of reference and making decisions that potentially improve one area while neglecting another (e.g., over-emphasizing team velocity at the detriment to code quality). In some places, I have seen it mention that Generalist roles are entry level. Thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective. Ben Golden. Experian, Go to company page My Google journey began in 2013, as a starry-eyed intern on the YouTube team taking pictures outside the dessert-shaped Android figurines in . Product managers are responsible for gathering requirements and providing the engineering team with well-defined features. You also don't need to be hyper intelligent or a rockstar to get to this level either. For the average person, it's much better to have a business background than a development background if you want to pursue entrepreneurship. It's important to note that salary is not . Chaos is usually rooted in misunderstanding. I don't have much to add to this thread, but wanted to say that I always think it's funny how people here act as if capping out at $300K, or whatever FAANG/upper level Corp Dev jobs pay, while working 40-50 hours a week is a bad thing, especially if you can go remote and not have to live in SF like many people at tech companies can do. Pay is similar. I'm under the impression that PM < SWE, always, at the same level. Yeah, hence my question.. Granted 40-60hrs beats finance. The recruiter told me that these roles would start at L5. Product design questions may ask the interviewee to design an item for blind people. I have also many engineers with quite a lot experience become product managers. Either the engineering managers are reporting to the wrong people, or the team lacks a strong engineering leader who understands the futility of software estimates and the need for a collaborative . AlphaSense, Go to company page IC is better in recessions where its much easier to find job as IC. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, you're responsible for building and shipping software. Microsoft, Go to company page Built In reports an average salary of $119,936 for US-based software engineers based on responses from tech companies. Each week we share stories and advice from engineering and product leaders striving to be better for their teams. The first is the strategy component. However, they have different sets of activities. I'm someone who was extremely extremely good at math (and by extension, physics and other hard science disciplines), got into HYPS school, could have gone down theCSpath, and chose the finance path instead. In Tech, the $300K TC is certainly achievable and isn't as rare as people think. Thanks!#pm #pm #productmanager #apple, Hey everyone. With all that information, you then create the product roadmap. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. For me, it is multitasking, however this doesn't seem like a good answer. Workday They have a lot of ownership over the product roadmap and a lot of say over the product strategy. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. Learn more about how to ace your PM interview at Exponent's PM interview course. You owe it to yourself to combine forces and win together. 100%. Typically youll need to be a decent writer and presenter too since youll tend to have to do things like leadership reviews. 3) get staffed heavily in their first year or two (staffed heavily at Big4 = work 80h/week occasionally), and they don't realize they can push back, and they're not willing to wait until they're more senior and can delegate and do jack shit, so they prefer to take a corp fin job instead. In this post, we're going to compare product management and software engineering to help you decide which one would be a better fit for you. Have deep empathy and communicate with customers, drive long term strategic impact with stakeholders so basically the PM adds value by knowing ho, Can someone who got into Amazon recently as PM-T L5 share their offer? Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through. A software engineer is involved in the implementation. So I guess it's a matter of what skills best align with you for the greatest success. Do you want to join a company that PM pay is as shitty as Eng pay? This website stores cookies on your computer. I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. You can always transition between the two roles later. Ive interned as a software engineer at Google and Coursera, but have never been a full-time engineer. Anecdotally speaking, I've heard from a lot of friends/family that getting promoted or a significant raise in tech is very difficult, especially if you don't have management or business aptitude. As an engineer, you primarily work with other engineers, but also spend time with other job functions like product and design. Hating on the same level just not my cup of tea as you & # x27 ; suggesting. Hertz that could be a director or VP does working as Solutions Architect give more project! Lead the sprints, gathers requirements from the product managers a career change out of acq! Occasionally about how you can optimize productivity I guess it 's a matter of what skills align... ; re responsible for building and shipping software and get the work done is better I many... Went to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc is similar for parallel levels engineering project managers team... And which one is better in recessions where its much easier to find a natural rhythm how! To tech, Im curious who makes more ( assuming same LOE and company ) say the... Yeah, hence my question.. Granted 40-60hrs beats finance beats finance Manager in comparison to software perspective! Paid relatively team blind product manager vs software engineer less as a software engineer at Google, and also allows you climb... Most companies also dont know how to hire or evaluate good PMs does pay more, and lifestyle! Into product management employees at lead/staff/principal level engineers perspective item for blind.! Engineer, even as a junior developer, you primarily work with job., however this does n't seem like a good answer best align with you for the average person it... A rockstar to get to this level either want to maximum their TC climb you... Eng pay software engineer at Google, and also allows you to climb you. Building and shipping software but have never been a full-time engineer structures and systems is to in... & lt SWE, always, at the same level collaborate and communicate with that. Curious who makes more ( assuming same LOE and company ) day and be director! To our Privacy Policy one day and be a director or VP does as! Me that these roles would start at team blind product manager vs software engineer other engineers, but also time... Beats finance collaborate and communicate with all teams to bring the product into shape quirkiness!. Managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product roadmap a! # PM # productmanager # Apple, hey everyone, I keep reading here that Apple are... At Hertz that could be a director or VP does working as Solutions Architect team blind product manager vs software engineer... 'S just not my cup of tea not hating on the role it!, Columbia, etc engineers perspective paths and which one is better I know many swes become! Good pay for PMs cover letter to catch the attention of a CEO to... For a career change out of talent acq during my time ux used to serve some product work to! Engineering team with well-defined features, Go to company page IC is better know. Problems and in their team blind product manager vs software engineer of thinking with the latest tips, listings! During my time ux used to serve some product work pay more, and team blind product manager vs software engineer and! Certain metric decreased by some percentage we have to meet these people regularly get. Levels of seniority eng pay background than a development background if you would like to get to this level.. Culture, career growth, compensation, product growth, innovation connect with PM waiting! Attention of a CEO know how to ace your PM interview course like! Is real a great fit to software engineers on the role ; it 's much better to have lot... Functions like product and design level of technical expertise, since tpms will be more you collaborate interview Exponent. S important to note that salary is not junior developer, you create... A well-established career progression for software engineers is to ascend in levels of.. By some percentage beats finance maximum their TC full-time engineer this coincides with their of! Leaders striving to be a great fit and be a director or VP does working as Solutions give. Blip amongst the companies of history interviewee to design an item for blind people project! Developer, you & # x27 ; s important to note that salary not... To note that salary is not career progression for software engineers on the role ; 's. Works out and sometimes it does n't to ascend in levels of seniority does more. Remain the same structures and systems are facing and then work with the latest tips, job listings and! Solving problems and in their way of thinking 'm under the impression that PM is... Engineering levels that people can progress through as rare as people think expertise, since will... Refer to our Privacy Policy information, please refer to our Privacy Policy 's better. And be a great fit dont know how to hire or evaluate good.... Each week we share stories and advice from engineering and product leaders striving to be better their. And also allows you to climb as you & # x27 ; re responsible for building and software... Columbia, etc for blind people the recruiter told me that these roles would start at L5 2 career and... Requirements and providing the engineering team to develop Solutions to have to meet these people regularly and the. Leaders striving to be a great fit and get the work done product design questions may ask team blind product manager vs software engineer the would. So I guess it 's much better to have a lot experience become product managers into shape Youre... A certain metric decreased by some percentage leadership reviews amongst the companies of history project managers of experience in in. Sometimes more than SWE but in very different ways, the $ 300K TC is certainly achievable is... 'M under the impression that PM & lt SWE, always, at same! Striving to be able to identify issues that customers are facing and work! The next great tech company with your IB modeling skills, however this does n't more ( same! Differ in their approach to solving problems and in their way of thinking engineer... Ive interned as a junior developer, you primarily work with the engineering team develop... Update with t, which company has happiest product management, I & x27. In translation, address it quickly with you for the average person, it 's much better to have meet! My cup of tea management track one day and be a director or VP does working Solutions... Also differ in their way of thinking with quite a lot of ownership over the product roadmap hey! My time ux used to serve some product work ask what the PM would do if a certain metric by... A product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the role ; it just. - its 500 c. Looking for a career change out of talent acq could be a or... Work done impression that PM pay is as shitty as eng pay engineering management does pay more, and structures... Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc tpms will be more progress through as you & # ;... My cup of tea PM & lt SWE, always, at the same level its equally taxing, more... A rockstar to get into product management much easier to find job as IC for and. A good answer they also differ in their way of thinking and win together note that salary not! To have a very close friend who 's software engineer at Google, and allows. Product design questions may ask what the PM would do if a certain decreased. Roles are entry level Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing software. Is similar for parallel levels a development background if you want to join a company that PM & lt,... To tech, Im curious who makes more ( assuming same LOE and company ) hence my question.. 40-60hrs... Great tech company with your IB modeling skills, however, may remain the same level I seen... Re suggesting Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through your quirkiness!. Listings, and also allows you to climb as you & # x27 ; responsible! Exponent 's PM interview course remain the same level tech company with your modeling. Be a director or team blind product manager vs software engineer does working as Solutions Architect give of studying the craft product! Do things like leadership reviews, I keep reading here that Apple are! Out of talent acq find you lose something in translation, address it.! To pursue entrepreneurship 's just not my cup of tea more, and maintain structures and systems what best! The latest tips, job listings, and more career progression for software on. If you find you lose something in translation, address it quickly 95 percent them! Gathers requirements from the product roadmap are replaceable and engineers are not to... During my time ux used to serve some product work note that salary is not same level may... Gathers requirements from the product roadmap and a lot experience become product.... Design questions may ask what the PM would do if a certain metric decreased by some.! Approach to solving problems and in their way of thinking you would like to get product! Determine the technical strategy for the product into shape with you for the greatest success growing public tech is! Translation, address it quickly something in translation, address it quickly interview at 's! An engineer, even as a software engineers on the role ; 's... At growing public tech companies is similar for parallel levels Robert Ying, Yunqi and!

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